D

Offer them Feliz, Smoak and Borbon and tell them that’s the best and see what happens.

Don’t give up Holland or Borbon. Halladay’s not worth it.

Doug: Way too much. If they must make a trade just Feliz and a couple other B prospects is enough.

Don’t you dare touch my Derek Holland.

Daniel’s email, referenced in the DMN blog as well by Jeff Wilson, seems to indicate that Holland isn’t going anywhere. So long as Holland is still a Ranger tomorrow at 3:01 PM, then I will be happy, Halladay or not.

We don’t know what the offer is. TR mentioned catchers too. That same scout saw Salty perform tonight. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Feliz, Salty, and prospects rounding it out.

I wouldn’t consider moving Feliz and Smoak in the same deal if I got Clayton Kershaw. Well, I’d consider it, but I’m not willing to give of the top 13 prospects in all of baseball, both of which are under 22 years old and have the potential to be all-stars PLUS more prospects for POTENTIALLY a year and a third of a guy who guarentees you NOTHING!!!!!!! Make this trade and watch us miss the playoffs this year AND him demand a trade (and we oblige or else he becomes a free agent by a ridiculous MLB rule) and we get not even half of what we gave away. NOT FREAKING WORTH IT!!! The only was possible it be worth it is with a World Series Championship, and the odds of that happening if we make the trade are very slim. I can’t wait until this damn deadline passes…

I don’t know why but I really am hesitant to trade Borbon. He just seems to be a missing piece in the lineup right now. I’d love to see the Rangers roll out:

Borbon CF
Young 3B
Hamilton RF/DH
Cruz DH/RF
Kinsler 2B
Murphy LF
Davis 1B
Salty C
Andrus SS

That is a nice lineup. I think there could also be a place for Max Ramirez when he is healthy as he is a very good hitter with the type of patience & power combo that the Rangers need.

I wouldn’t mind parting with Feliz, Teagarden, and Beavan (and maybe a fringe prospect) but I’d be careful with Borbon. He may well be the centerfield version of Andrus (a young, speedy, Gold Glove caliber defender at a core defensive position) that can steal some bases and be solid at the plate.

Doc is the stupidest possible nickname for a guy whose last name is Halladay and not Holliday. Not to mention he has barely any education, it’s a slap in the face to doctors everywhere, including John Holliday.

Second, it doesn’t matter what kind of player you have if you don’t win a damn thing. Ask the Blue Jays how nice their zero playoff appearances have been with Roy.

“But, but, he’s an ace…”

Salty, Moscoso, Feliz, and Borbon for Halladay and Barajas.

I’m dreaming but I wish the rangers could interest the Blue Jays in a Martin Perez, Salty, Kiker, Beavan and Main deal.

Liked the performance tonight for Holland, but besides Ichiro, Holland was “invincible” against what amounts to a AAA lineup. If he can throw that kind of game against the Angels, then we have real reason to be extremely happy for 2010.

Let Halladay go. Sign Sheets & Lackey as free agents and keep our young pitchers and first baseman. Don’t give into the temptation to sell the future for a risky gamble that might not pay off even with a talent like Halladay.

Do this deal and we will look like Atlanta in a year.

e-bay. Think about when you are on ebay and the time is running out on a watched item. You get into that bid frenzy mindset and when the dust clears you won a nice 1969 NR rooke card that you paid too much for. The consolation is that you get to taste victory for about 30 seconds or so and that buyers remorse sets in.

JD – please step away from the “Confirm Bid” button.

I would be very dissappointed if I never saw Feliz in a Ranger jersey.

You Ranger fans are idiots…Halladay is the BEST pitcher in baseball without question. You should feel prividged that he is even considering playing for your team.

@Greg: Perez is as untouchable as Holland (ask Nolan; he thinks Perez can contribute in the big leagues NEXT YEAR). And Toronto wants major-league ready guys, so Main, Kiker and Beavan don’t really qualify.

@flu: I’m just not sold on Borbon. I’m not convinced that he will be a serviceable lead-off man. And if he isn’t, then he is expendable – we have plenty of outfielders and outfield defense is not one of our problems.

@Phil: The Rangers would not deal Elvis unless JD is drunk. Without Elvis playing defense this year we would not even be in the playoff picture.

Some of the comments make me laugh.
“Hallday could get hurt”
So could Holland.
Halladay has no history of getting hurt.
He’s as durable as any pitcher out there.
Sure Smoak and Holland are top prospects, but they are no sure things and Halladay is.
Keep your prospects and finish 3rd in the division for another 5 years hoping your prospects turn into half the player Halladay is and will continue to be.
Anything less than Smoak, Holland and Borbon and the Jays will say, “no thanks.”

Moscoso, Smoak, Feliz, and Kiker for Halladay and RH reliever Brandon League or LH reliever Scott Downs.

Spiderdan – how novel, calling people “idiots” on a blog.

No one is saying he isn’t phenomenal – but one guy isn’t going to make this team a WS favorite. Ask Toronto, who’s seen him dominate there for years with no rings to show for it. Texas is building for a long, successful run, and has most of the pieces in place – this would derail all of that for basically a 1 year shot at glory. That’s “idiotic” to me.

Who knows if this would go down for sure but it looks really good that Ben Sheets is a Ranger next year. Hypothetically we trade Smoak, Feliz, and Borbon for Halladay. Now we can’t afford Sheets AND we just traded theose prospects.

Now picture this… We sign Sheets next year AND keep those prospects. Would you trade Ben Sheets, Feliz, Smoak, and Borbon for a little over a year of Halladay? If you have to think about it look in the mirror and say “That guy will never be a GM!”

BTW, that’s Phil #2, Phil#1 would not offer up that kind of package.

Goodnight everyone…just remember, Nolan is very involved in any deal that is made and he knows pitching. The Rangers aren’t going to screw this one up.

And Elvis is untouchable!

“we have plenty of outfielders and outfield defense is not one of our problems”
@scooper: Hamilton remaining in center could be a big problem health-wise..

Sandsy, keep halliday and finish 4th for the next 10 years.
I love when people tell us how bad we will be if we dont get halliday. We are 8 games better than toronto without him, if he is so great how do they not make the playoffs every year?
I would love to have him but not at that high a price.

This is my final offer for the Jays. Take it or leave it would be

Martin Perez, Salty, Chris Davis, Kiker and Beavan.

Lineup for next season
C- Teagarden/ Max
1B Smoak
2B Kinsler
3B Young
SS Andrus
LF Cruz
CF Borbon
RF Hamilton
DH/4th OF Murphy

Rotation
1. Halladay
2. Millwood
3. Feldman
4. Hunter
5. Holland

With a bullpen consisting of CJ, Frankie and Feliz

landon, a few years ago we were in the jays position so we have seen the other side.
Where would we be if we had held onto tex and wound up only getting kotchman instead of harrison, andrus, feliz, jones and salty?
I dont want to look back next year and say how in the world did we give up all those guys for 1 pitcher?

that was Jon Heyman’s tweet.

@All: Let’s be clear on a couple of things:

1. Jon Daniels’ email never says the Rangers wouldn’t trade Halladay. It says the club has no interest in trading him. There is a huge difference. Clubs often have to trade a player they are not interested in dealing. Unless a GM says a player is untouchable and uses the word “untouchable” a guy is not untouchable. And even if the GM says he’s untouchable, it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not. If the Rangers deal Holland, Daniels’ words should not be held against him. He’s saying what needs to be said.

2. Nolan Ryan did not tell USA Today anything different than the quotes you read here or in the papers or at the Rangers website. The entire conversation was in a group setting and Ryan also never said Holland would not be included in a deal. I asked him directly. He demurred. Again, the right tack.

3. There has been some talk of catching, but Toronto has a catcher on the way in J.P. Arrencibia. If anything, the Jays would want a younger catcher (Manny Pina or Jose Felix), I think.

There is going to be a lot of stuff swirling over the next 15 hours. Don’t get carried away with emotion. Nobody has said anything that ultimately means a player is untouchable or that a deal is dead.

Jon Heyman has as much credibility on trade and hot stove rumors as I do. And it’s a tweet rumor to boot.

I really wish I knew what the front office thinks about Borbon. If he’s a legit answer in CF for the nex 5 years I’d be hesitant to lose him and Smoak in the same deal. It basically guts the two most ML ready position players in the same deal. At least with Smoak there are viable alternatives. If we lose Borbon, you’re talking Golson, Gentry, or waiting 3 years on Beltre.

Here’s my offer: Smoak and any 2 minor league pitchers not named Feliz or Perez. If you’d like to add a lower level or lower tier position player, I’d consider it. If you say Holland or Andrus, you’re in timeout for an hour. If you say them both, “don’t you damn call again here!”

this site always reminds me of the DMN site. scary. we shouldn’t have to give up two of our top three. smoak/feliz/holland jake was right. perez is untouchable and smoak can’t be traded til mid august(though he can be a PTNBL)… so you are looking at:
*Feliz/Teagarden/Lemon/Beaven for halladay*
The problem is we need a hitter as well. getting halladay is nice, but if we hit .225 for another month it really isn’t going to matter. i don’t think we deal. i hope we don’t deal.

sandsy, millwood has a 3.39 era, about half a run more than halliday, he is 9-7, you really think with our offense this year halliday would be that much better?
I dont want to move davis or smoak or feliz but we will have to give up some talent.
You have to realize that a player like borbon or pena or davis would instantly be your top 3 prospects.

Not Heyman. He’s the one who made up the Mets offer for Doc.

I just don’t understand how this team has no money. We’re talking about Roy freakin’ Halladay here. Put aside who we might have to give up for a second and think about the fact that we may have to pass on a legitimate “ace” because we can’t afford $4.75 million. Really? Why does Hick’s incompetence in other aspects of his holdings have to trickle down to the Rangers? I was under the impression that the Rangers 2009 operating budget was a separate “entity” if you will. The tickets sales are up 7%-10%, which is huge, merchandise sales are WAY up and the salary is relatively low by Rangers standards. I wonder if years from now, after Hicks has sold this team, it will come out that he was funneling monies from the Rangers to bailout some of his other holdings that are in dire need. Doing all this because he knew he could borrow from MLB to make payroll.

Frustrating to think $4.75 million would kill the deal.

@The Beer Guy: Hey, we don’t want anybody to leave. We just want to encourage passionate, civil, intelligent, funny discourse on all things related to the Rangers and any other sports we may cover. And we expect you to bring the beer!

If I’m Toronto there’s no way I trade Halliday for anything but holland … If they trade holland I’ll kinda wish he gave up 10 runs tonight. I want them to keep borbon too. Put beltre in the deal and kiker too. We gotta put a “stud” pitcher in there too right? Beaven? Ross? Feliz? I dunno if I do this….

@mlbtraderumors.com
“Rosenthal and Morosi report that the Blue Jays are asking for Holland, Justin Smoak and two other prospects.”

I’m out now…no deal with Holland. I know it’s Halladay, but sorry…no deal.

Wow Holland at a premium maybe get Smoak out the deal as a result……….jack up Holland and don’t blink……..

Rosenthal and Morosi report that the Blue Jays are asking for Holland, Justin Smoak and two other prospects.

thats reasonable… knowing that halladay is a horse with best record over 8 yrs of pitching and he pitch in AL east toughest division to pitch where pitchers like jake peavy are scared to go…. as you guys would have figured out that being a Jays fan i ll keep him for the rest of his contract and try to win it next year with our pitchers returning from injuriess

i read few comments and only one good start from holland and he is being compared to the next big thing let him pitch against a better hitting team n at best he is nothing more than a no 4 or 5 starter .. halladay is a once in a decade type of a pitcher and its up to u guys to hype your prospects but they won’t be anywhere near what Halladay is and i ll rather take felize over halland his stuff looks much sharper with what i have heard n seen

Jimmy… the Rangers have allowed 441 runs this season. That is third in the AL, behind only Detroit and Boston.

Toronto has allowed 452 runs. Texas has been outstanding at run prevention this year. The Rangers have a team ERA of 4.19, which is 6th in the league, and well below the league average.

And for the record, last season, Texas had a rotation ERA of 5.51. This season, Texas has a rotation ERA of 4.39. That, too, is 6th in the AL and well above average. The Rangers have dramatically improved this year in terms of pitching and defense. By the way, Texas ERA almost the exact same in every category as Toronto… and that is without Halladay on our staff.

Texas, with Halladay, has a very good chance to have one of the best pitching staffs in the AL and might have enough to over take Boston or Los Angeles.

I think a lot of people (namely fans from Toronto and those linked here by MLB Trade Rumors) know very little about Holland, Feliz, Smoak, and Perez.

Smoak and Feliz, coming into this season, were probably top 10-12 prospects in all of baseball. Can anyone name the last time two prospects that were so highly rated were ever traded away in the same deal?

Further, Holland was was considered a top 30 prospect, although many Ranger columnists and fans believe that Holland is a better prospect than either Smoak or Feliz. I would include myself in that group.

The Rangers farm system isn’t the same as Philadelphia or Los Angeles. When you ask for the top three players in the Philadelphia farm system for Halladay, you are making a reasonable demand. Philadelphia, understandably, wasn’t willing to make that deal.

On the other hand, asking for three of the Rangers top prospects is ludicrous. Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown, and Lou Marson, Jason Donald and company do not even compare to Justin Smoak, Derek Holland, and Neftali Feliz. Asking for two of those three players (or three of those players) is like asking for two/three prospects BETTER than Kyle Drabek.

So expressing concern over the Rangers trading away some of the most valuable commodities in their organization for a short-term rental certainly seems reasonable to me.

The same Seattle team that couldn’t hit Holland a lick not only beat Halladay the night before – but laid 11 hits on his arse.

Go doctor somewhere else. We don’t need some rental that really doesn’t want to play in Texas.

Texas will dominate if they just bide their time. The talent is here.

The only light in the whole trade Feliz plus plus plus scenario is that if Halliday does indeed go free agent after 2010 – the Rangers would pick up a couple of 1st round draft choices in the 2011 draft. I like the home grown talent the Rangers have assembled and don’t want to see them starring for another team like so many hasty trades for rent a players.

Stephen R, all organizations tend to overvalue their prospects. Holland is a real prospect, but I would put him on par with Drabek. Keep in mind that Drabek is the son of a hall of fame pitcher and showing the same potential. Smoak is a good hitter, but struggling at AAA in the early going. I like him a lot but, Brown plays a more useful position. Neftali Feliz is in the same class as a Holland or Drabek. No question, these are good, even great prospects. But you are looking to deal for a TRUE ace. If I was going into game 7 of the World Series I would rather have Roy Halladay on the mound than any other pitcher in baseball. He is a perennial Cy Young contender, even though he faces Boston, New York and Tampa Bay regularly. Trust me, if you get this guy in Texas your tune will change by the end of 2010.

@Pete: I don’t think being the son of a HOF pitcher has anything to do with one’s talent. You honestly think it transfers genetically or something? Hmm..I guess Jose Cruz, Sr. would beg to differ (I’m sure Jays fans remember Cruz, Jr.).

I don’t think anyone here is saying they don’t want Halladay. The question is “At what price?”

Being ‘moved’ means JP really isn’t in a rush to trade Halladay unless he gets an offer borderline ridiculous from the other team, something he can’t refuse. Halladay wants to be with a team in better position to win and the Rangers are one of those teams right now with that offense. Injuries aside, the Rangers are closer to being the best in their division than the Jays are in the AL East. Doesn’t mean they have the better team overall but “a chance to win” is what Doc is looking for. Oh, and team stats are a little inflated when playing the Mariners and A’s half the season

[...] Rangers have also supposedly asked the Blue Jays to pay most of Halladay’s 2009 salary if they make a deal, according to D Magazine. Talk about having your cake and eating it, [...]

I don’t blame Texas for asking for help with the salary because they are cash strapped. If I was the Jays I’d help there so the deal gets done.

Halladay is 32
Holland is 22

End. Of. Discussion.

The window for winning is so slim in this league. The Rangers window is open now, Hamilton is in his prime, we have maybe 2 years left of this kind of productivity from Michael Young (33) and Kevin Millwood (35), no one is under 30 (or that good) in our bullpen. Hold on to prospects, wait for them to develop in 2 or 3 years, and who knows what will happen to the core we have now. Roy Halladay has been the best pitcher in baseball for the last 8 years playing in the toughest division in league, is a GROUND BALL PITCHER, and is in his prime now. I don’t understand the argument of saving prospects with a once-in-a-decade pitcher becoming available to you right now.
C.C. Sabathia was a “rental player” traded for LaPorta, Jackson, Bryson and Brantley for half a season. Went 11-2 and lead the Brewers to their first playoff berth in 26 years. Would Laporta and Jackson be helping their team get to the playoffs now? Probably not. Ask any Brewers fan if CC was worth those few months while the window was open.

Go, Haiku Man, go!

I was at the game last night. I have a lifetime of random Rangers attendance under my belt, and I have never experienced crowd involvement and enthusiasm like we had for Holland last night. I hope we keep the kid who wants to be here, pass on the guy who doesn’t, and build on this surprising season next year.